Sleepless & Sassy

Sleep used to be your loyal companion… now it’s ghosting you. In this episode of Hot Flash & Sassy, we unravel why falling asleep, staying asleep, and waking up not drenched feels impossible in peri‑ and menopause. We break down the hormonal chaos behind it all, share real‑life stories, and offer some tips so you can stop blaming yourself and finally get some rest.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:04

Hot Flash and Sassy, a podcast with hot takes, hotter flashes, and a whole lot of sass.

SPEAKER_01 0:21

Hey Holly, welcome back to Hot Flash and Sassy, the podcast where we talk honestly about hormones, midlife, and all the things no one warned us about.

SPEAKER_00 0:30

If you're listening to this at 2 37 a.m. while staring at the ceiling, first of all, hi, you're not alone.

SPEAKER_01 0:37

Hi. Today we're talking about sleep. That's right. More accurately, the lack of it during perimenopause and menopause. Falling asleep, staying asleep, waking up drenched in sweat, waking up anxious, and waking up for no reason at all. Does that sound familiar to anybody out there?

SPEAKER_00 0:54

Oh no, not me. Um sarcasm.

SPEAKER_01 0:58

Uh if sleep That's the sass in hot flash and CSE. Got lots of it.

SPEAKER_00 1:04

If sleep suddenly packed its bags and left without explanation, hormones might be the reason. And no, you're not broken, dramatic, or doing something wrong.

SPEAKER_01 1:12

Today we're breaking down why sleep changes during this stage of life. What's happening in your body and what actually helps? Yep, we're gonna see if we can help you out a little bit. So, uh Holly, how about uh making some connection between hormones and sleep? Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:29

Let's start with the basics. Sleep isn't about being tired, it's controlled by your her hormones. Did you know that, by the way? I didn't until I was started looking at hormones. Yeah. Absolutely not. I had sleep problems that we kept trying to troubleshoot. I wasn't sleeping well. I was up a lot in the night. And um, I had no idea. I had zero idea.

SPEAKER_01 1:49

I never well, I didn't either. I just really thought my head was racing. You know, I thought it was stress, which obviously all things can affect our hormones, but um, estrogen, progesterone, cortisol, melatonin all play a role in how we sleep. And during perimenopause and menopause, these hormones start changing, sometimes subtly, sometimes a little more aggressive than we like. Don't we all know that?

SPEAKER_00 2:16

Right. I feel like the sleep went immediately for me.

SPEAKER_01 2:18

Yeah, for sure.

SPEAKER_00 2:19

Um, which estrogen helps regulate body temperature, mood, and sleep quality. So when your estrogen fluctuates or drops, your brain's internal thermostat gets confused, which hello, night sweats and hot flashes throw back to our last episode.

SPEAKER_01 2:32

I was just gonna say, if you need a little help with hot flashes, check out the last episode. So progesterone is calming, it's sometimes called the relaxing hormone. Did you know that? I didn't know we had one that relaxed. I know. I thought they were all neurotic.

unknown 2:48

It's nice to know.

SPEAKER_01 2:50

So when progesterone drops, falling asleep can feel harder and anxiety can creep in. So let's talk about anxiety for a hot minute because I kind of didn't really make the correlation between hormones and anxiety. I definitely I mean, I get it, right? Like our bodies are going nuts and we're anxious all the time because we think we can control what's happening inside of us, and we can't because the hormones are really what's in charge.

SPEAKER_00 3:19

Right. I agree. Like, I started having issues with anxiety closer to when I was haverectomy, like daily, that I used to not have, and I never would have thought had anything to do with my hormones. No.

SPEAKER_01 3:30

Where do you go? Oh, yeah. Hormones, that's exactly what popped in my mind. First thing, because you know, I'm all of 29. We've talked about this age difference here.

SPEAKER_00 3:40

Really putting your age out there. That's so great.

SPEAKER_01 3:43

The young age of 29, you don't think that hormones are gonna be a problem for you yet? I mean, I don't you think of that as like an old person's problem? Not that old, not old person. That sounds terrible. Maybe Alex should probably cut that one out so we don't so the crowd doesn't, you know, boo me. But I just really thought that I am not in midlife and I'm definitely not an older person. I am 29.

SPEAKER_00 4:09

Yeah, yeah. No, I hear you. And I think with anxiety, it's like I went to the doctor for it and they were all just putting me on anxiety meds. Like no one was like, not one doctor mentioned to me, well, maybe it's your hormones. Hey, you're 28 years old.

SPEAKER_01 4:22

Maybe you should check your hormones.

SPEAKER_00 4:23

That's probably why they didn't go there. That's a good point. They were like, You're too young. Too way too young. Well, um, we okay, so that's that's our relaxing, right? Our relaxing hormone. Let's talk about my favorite one, uh, cortisol, which is your stress hormone. Oh, fun.

SPEAKER_01 4:41

Bring it on.

SPEAKER_00 4:42

That one is, I think, my prime one. I don't know. Um, so that can rise during midlife, especially with poor sleep, stress, and hormone shifts. That's why so many women wake up between 2 and 4 a.m. with their mind racing, which is the exact time that I would wake up. If you is exactly when I would wake up.

SPEAKER_01 4:59

And is it oddly ironic that 3 a.m. is the witching hour? Hell yeah, because we all turn into witches because our hormones are bitches. I love a little ride. I'm a poet. How fuck? Um, what about melatonin? That's your sleep hormone. It naturally decreases with age, which makes light sleeping lighter, more fragile. Um, what do you I don't know what to make of that because you know, for a hundred years, people have been telling me I need to take melatonin. Have you ever taken it? No.

SPEAKER_00 5:32

So I have, and I don't care for it. Like, I don't maybe it's too much for me, but I feel like I do wake up pretty groggy and not like I can't take something that's gonna that I can't like wake up and be ready to go. Affect your next day. Yeah, and I feel like it takes me a few hours to get out of it.

SPEAKER_01 5:48

Um that's a whole reason I haven't taken it.

SPEAKER_00 5:50

Nope. And I think it's interesting because it is really a hormone and that's a you know a supplement, but it's just something that that I have not really enjoyed taking.

SPEAKER_01 5:57

I would have never made that correlation, but here we are. Hormones taking the lead. So let's make the correlation between uh perimenopause and menopause sleep, or not correlation. What's the difference?

SPEAKER_00 6:12

Yeah, so sleep issues usually show up early. So sometimes before a woman even realizes that they're in perimenopause. Hello. Yeah, we just addressed that, didn't we?

SPEAKER_01 6:22

Yep. How about those of us that are in perimenopause? Um, our hormones fluctuate constantly. And well, maybe just for every 29-year-old out there, that means sleep problems can feel random and unpredictable. Um, one night you fall asleep easily, like somebody turned off the lights and it was like, okay, night night, and then the next night you're tossing and turning for hours. One morning you wake up at 3 a.m., the next one you're sleeping straight through the night. Um, those sleep issues include erasing thoughts, anxiety, night sweats that come and go, and of course, feeling tired but wired. My favorite. How about menopause?

SPEAKER_00 7:03

Got another little rhyme in there, tired but wired. I'm on a roll today.

SPEAKER_01 7:07

You early are.

SPEAKER_00 7:08

So for menopause, once you reach menopause, which is defined again as 12 months without a period, your estrogen levels stabilize at a lower baseline. Sleep problems may become more consistent. Woo-hoo. Night sweats and hot flashes can happen more regularly, and sleep often feels lighter and less restorative. Um, many women wake earlier than they want and can't fall back asleep even if they're exhausted.

SPEAKER_01 7:31

Well, for once, Webster's is right. I always I lightly refer to Webster's, but that's more of the terminology or the detailed dictionary description of it. I feel like that's the most accurate one it's given us so far.

SPEAKER_00 7:46

I would agree. The sleep seems right on. So yeah, we're not obviously medical professionals, as we say every time. I mean, we just do a little research before we we bring you guys this. So just because this is what the internet says doesn't mean that it's what we've experienced. So that's why we like to kind of share the difference between those. But I would agree. This seems pretty spot on so far.

SPEAKER_01 8:04

Spot on. So let's talk about what's actually waking you up. What are these sleep disruptors, Holly?

SPEAKER_00 8:13

Well, I'll just start with our best topic hot those hot flashes and night sweats. That's a big one. Last episode. If your if your body's overheating and it, you know, then cools quickly. We talk about those chills. I have not had those, but that's something you've experienced. Of course, that's gonna wake you up.

SPEAKER_01 8:29

Definitely.

SPEAKER_00 8:30

You're on fire in bed, right? Just jolts you awake. Um, your anxiety, mood changes also play a role. Um, hormone shifts affect neurotransmitters like serotonin, which impacts both mood and sleep. And I think that's huge, especially. I think we always chalk it up to mom brain because we have so much going and our mind is constantly racing, which yes, I do think is a thing, but maybe it's really just our hormones. Maybe it's not so much mom brain as it is perimenopause and menopause. Um, alert. Maybe we're not crazy.

SPEAKER_01 9:03

Yay!

SPEAKER_00 9:05

At least it's what we're really trying to sell here.

SPEAKER_01 9:07

Um just sassy. Not crazy.

SPEAKER_00 9:10

Yeah. So some of the other things, caffeine, uh, we've talked about that last time. I will say I still drink caffeine, but it I do have to finish any caffeine by like 1 p.m. If I were to have anything after that, it does keep me up. Um, alcohol hit differently now. Um so yeah, an afternoon coffee or evening glass of wine might suddenly kind of sabotage our sleep. I get that. Sometimes if I drink alcohol, I feel like I'm sleeping better because I actually do make it through the night, but I guess you're just like passed out. I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 9:40

Um you're not getting a quality of sleep.

SPEAKER_00 9:46

So typically I would wake up the next day still feeling very sluggish, even though I slept the whole time.

SPEAKER_01 9:50

So I just really want to remind everybody, I think I said it in episode one. I'm not giving up caffeine or alcohol. Uh, but I am a caffeine drinker, so I can drink all the way through and it doesn't change. You know, I could have a cup of coffee before bed, and uh, whatever my hormone's fate is, that's what I'm gonna get for the night. So I don't find a correlation between waking up. It's just, you know, I my body likes the witching hour, I guess. Yeah. But one other thing, Holly, that I really, really suffer from is pain and joint stiffness. I mean, I sound like a walking skeleton sometimes with my body creaking. Um, and the risk of sleep apnea can show up during menopause, which I had no clue, but it totally makes sense. Yeah, it does. Do you know anybody with sleep apnea?

SPEAKER_00 10:45

I don't know any females with sleep apnea. I don't either.

SPEAKER_01 10:49

I know men.

SPEAKER_00 10:50

I know a lot of men that have it.

SPEAKER_01 10:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 10:52

Um but yeah, I don't know, I don't know any females that have sleep apnea.

SPEAKER_01 10:56

Right, right. Well, of course, the the number one I think you kind of mentioned is let's not forget about stress. Um, that is I I would have to say the most common sleep disruptor is the stress. And um chronic stress actually raises cortisol, which tells your body it's not safe to rest, which is not good. No, because somebody needs to tell my body often that it's okay to rest.

SPEAKER_00 11:21

Yeah, but that makes sense. If you're in stress mode and you're like have like that, is your body's way of saving you, right? Because if you know you're being attacked by something, you wouldn't want to go to sleep. I mean, it's kind of your preventative, even though that is not what you're stressed with.

SPEAKER_01 11:34

Totally. Totally.

SPEAKER_00 11:36

Absolutely crazy.

SPEAKER_01 11:38

It is crazy to think about the reasons why all of this is happening. And I I just was like, oh, I'm getting older. I guess that's why my body hurts or I'm stiff. I guess I'm just not active enough anymore. But it really we can attribute most of this to hormones.

SPEAKER_00 11:56

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 11:56

It's crazy. So, Holly, what does bad sleep really feel like? I feel like I don't need to ask that question, but go ahead.

SPEAKER_00 12:06

And everybody listening probably knows this too. But you know, it's it's not just being tired, right? Like that's the tip of the iceberg. Yeah, you're tired, but it's the brain fog. How often do we talk about the brain fog? The brain fog in the brain, live my life in a fog. Your irritability, I've talked about that. I mean, you're so cranky. Feeling emotional over nothing. Right. Of course, if you're exhausted. Of course. Forgetting words mid-sentence. Oh my god, that's I that happens to me still. Um, it can affect your weight, your blood sugar, your mood, focus, and your ability to handle stress. I think the focus is huge.

SPEAKER_01 12:43

Oh yeah. Focus is 100% one of the worst things for me. I can't get around it. I can't get over it. I can't, I don't know what to do sometimes. You know, because even when I intentionally, you know, I like, you guys know that we do this from our conference room on our lunch hour at work. Um, but I call them power hours just to try and eliminate as many distractions as possible. And sometimes even my power hour is a fail because I just simply cannot focus.

SPEAKER_00 13:14

Yeah, it's I I actually, before hysterectomy again for countdown this journey, I was actually thought I had ADHD, which I've never had. So they told me they were like, typically, if you had something like that when you're a child, you would have it. I mean, I was on medicine for that. I was like, I cannot focus.

SPEAKER_01 13:30

That's unbelievable.

SPEAKER_00 13:31

Which is crazy. And again, never was hormones brought up.

SPEAKER_01 13:34

They were just like, here, try this pill. Here, try this. And by the way, as a gift, we'll give you a bunch of side effects. Yeah, right. Yeah, forget that stuff. Exactly. Um, but you know, when you're not sleeping, everything feels harder. So it's not just about focusing, it's the whole body is failing. You're failing personally. It's just awful to think that you know, we're so hard on ourselves as women anyway. And then you throw in the hormones, just wrecking your worlds, and then you're even harder on yourself, but it's actually just biology. Yep. It's unbelievable to just doing a little bit of research, how much we have uncovered. Oh, absolutely. So, what actually helps? Let's let's talk about some things. I think we're gonna cover a little lifestyle and an environment. So, Holly, what helps us?

SPEAKER_00 14:25

I it's interesting because a lot of these things are stuff that we covered on hot flashes. I know. Um, and I guess it's all just really correlated to like if you were to have a hot flash, which of course you can have from stress and kind of the same things that lack sleep. To be honest with you, I don't know about this part and how much this would help me, but we'll give it a go. Um, so cooling your environment, uh, cooler room, breathable sheets, layered bedding, moisture wicking pajamas, cooling pillows. You haven't tried those yet, have you? No, I have not. Even a bedside fan, which I use. I like the noise, but I always have. Consistency matters. I do find that one to be important. Try to follow that.

SPEAKER_01 15:05

Um, I have to bring up. I was trying to get through a whole episode without acknowledging Jay, because he's gonna get mad at me along the way here. He's gonna be like, could you just stop saying my name?

SPEAKER_00 15:16

If they could just give us less material, that would be.

SPEAKER_01 15:20

He is diehard on reducing the temperature of the house when we go to bed. He really thinks that helps. And some mornings he wakes up, he's like, Hey, how'd you sleep last night? And I'm like, like shit. What are what do you think? And he's like, Oh, well, I turned the thermostat down to 65. And I'm like, Well, didn't help me. Hope you had a good night's sleep.

SPEAKER_00 15:41

And doesn't that make it hard to get out of bed? Like, I want it to be cooler, but I have to be able to like get out of the bed. And I think if it was too cold, I would have to do that.

SPEAKER_01 15:49

I'm just pulling the covers up over my face. I know I do the same thing. Poor Jay. Poor Jay. Shout out, Jay. Sorry, babe.

SPEAKER_00 15:59

Uh, I think a big thing that I strive to do is going to bed and waking up around the same time because it helps you regulate your sleep rhythm.

SPEAKER_01 16:08

Oh, that's a yeah, that's a good idea.

SPEAKER_00 16:10

I'm pretty consistent. So even like the weekends, I do try to I I do try. I mean, I do sleep in a little bit, but it's typically like 20, 25 minutes most of what I do normally. Damn. That's it. I'm just an early riser, but I'm early to bed. And I do struggle if I get off. Like, so I go to bed at nine, and if I get off that schedule and I go to bed at 10 15, it impacts me. Like I can feel it the next day if I slept the whole time. I have a worse night of sleep going to bed later. Really? Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 16:39

Oh. Maybe maybe I should try that.

SPEAKER_00 16:42

You can try it, but you know, I'm all over the place.

SPEAKER_01 16:45

I get up when my five-year-old gets up. Otherwise, I force myself to stay in bed. Okay, all right.

SPEAKER_00 16:50

Well, okay, maybe that's not the route for you. So maybe there's some other like habits or nutrition or something else you could try out.

SPEAKER_01 16:56

No, literally, though, maybe I should not. Maybe I should, when my body wakes up, I should just get in the habit of just getting up. Yeah. Yeah. Maybe that whole snooze thing isn't really working for me.

SPEAKER_00 17:08

I am anti-snooze and I always have been. Oh, I I cannot do it.

SPEAKER_01 17:13

You're so good. I am uh I'm a snoozer and I have been a snoozer all my life. But that could be something that works. I mean, let's face it, hormones are gonna do their thing one way or another, but I could give a little effort. I'm about changing my habits. And nutrition, by the way. Um, you know, we already talked about the caffeine and the alcohol. They're not going away, but maybe I could be a little bit more mindful about how much caffeine I'm taking in in a day. Or maybe, well, we already, I already tested the what time I drink caffeine. But the alcohol's not going away. So if it disrupts my sleep, I'll just take it. Um, but some of the other things, we talk a lot about the supplements, but magnesium, I hear women just need magnesium, period. It doesn't matter what stage um if your life, your cycle, what have you you're in. I hear magnesium's really good for women.

SPEAKER_00 18:08

It should be good for headaches too.

SPEAKER_01 18:09

Yes, definitely, which Holly and I both are migraine sufferers. Um, but hydration, let's face it. I mean, if I really tested it and had a whole whatever gallon plus how much ever that you have to have to drink in a day, I bet I'm only getting there 75% of the time. And I'm super conscious about drinking water. How about you?

SPEAKER_00 18:34

I that is my drink of choice after my caffeine. I drink water all day. I drink a lot of it. And that's how I've always been. I mean, even I feel like as a kid, I didn't want all this other stuff, like sugary stuff. Um, so I I actually crushed the water one. Good for you. I actually get annoyed when they tell me to drink more water. Sometimes doctors will, they're like, make sure you're getting your water. And I'm like, I got this. Getting my water, okay? I can stand by that. I'm doing it.

SPEAKER_01 19:01

Um then, of course, we also have to do the disclaimer. Talk to your medical provider before trying supplements. You know, everybody's got uh different things going on in their body, and I just think blood work tells you a lot about what's going on in your body. So just make sure your doctors know about what types of supplements you're trying out there.

SPEAKER_00 19:23

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 19:23

Talking about doctors, Holly, what about some medical support?

SPEAKER_00 19:27

Uh, medical support, so hormone therapy that can improve sleep uh for some wis some women by addressing the root cause, which that's what I've taken. I my sleep is so much better than the one before I was on um hormone replacement.

SPEAKER_01 19:41

100%.

SPEAKER_00 19:42

There are also some non-hormonal options, medications and therapies like CBT, uh eye, so this is, which is very effective for insomnia. If sleep issues are persistent, a sleep study might be worth discussing. Again, you could have sleep apnea. I mean, there could be some other things there. What's interesting is trying to figure out like is the root cause actually your hormones and you don't have those other things, or do you just have those other things? Because they are real. Um I think for me, the stuff that I was addressing was all because of my hormones because essentially it's specs and then and my it is rare that I have a night of difficult sleep.

SPEAKER_01 20:20

So that's amazing. Do you notice it when you're weaning off your hormone replacement therapy? Yeah. It changes, right?

SPEAKER_00 20:27

That one is one of my like closer to needing pellet symptoms, but definitely. I'll start maybe a week out or something, I'll start having that waking up, that witching hour. Yeah. And I realize, oh my gosh, my mind won't turn off. Um, and occasionally have that even when I'm on it, but it's very rare. But it will be consistent before my pellets.

SPEAKER_01 20:45

Yeah, for sure. I figured I figured you would have the same correlation as I do. Yeah. Um, so survival tips. Um, one thing they say, you know, the deep breathing, the calming music, reading something that's boring and isn't going to stimulate your nervous system. I actually do meditation and I love the twilight meditation. So if I do wake up at the witching hour, I try and do a little bit of meditation because it's just the house is calm. I know nobody's going to interrupt me. And it's really a good time just to definitely zen out as I like to call it.

SPEAKER_00 21:23

And you think that helps you? Oh, definitely.

SPEAKER_01 21:25

Yeah. Once I calm my brain and tell my hormones to get their butts in check, then I can I can definitely lay back down to go to sleep easier.

SPEAKER_00 21:33

I'll tell you something that helped that I am actually trying to do better of, which is to keep the notepad by your bed.

SPEAKER_01 21:39

Oh, I love that.

SPEAKER_00 21:40

To write down your racing thoughts.

SPEAKER_01 21:41

100%.

SPEAKER_00 21:42

Because then it gives you permission to stop chasing them and you'll get better sleep. So I do that. I did it before I was on hormone replacement therapy. Um, I would put notes in my phone. A lot of times around work, like, because I would you would think of something like I have to get that done. Yes. And of course, it's always ten times worse in my sleep. Yes. But once I Wrote it down and I'd be like, okay, I won't forget it, but I really need to keep the notepad to make sure that is actually an active goal of mine. Um, right now is to do this because I still am kind of having some of those stressors, and I want to just be able to get my thoughts out. Yeah. Because once you get it out, it's like that that data dump. Someone just taught me that, and you feel like you can kind of move on and you don't need to worry because you're like, got it down, I'll take care of it.

SPEAKER_01 22:24

You almost purge your brain.

SPEAKER_00 22:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 22:26

Yeah. That's really helpful to do before you go to sleep. Um, too, not just when you wake up in the middle of the night. It's great if you're my other goal. If you had a stressful day at work, just start writing. It's amazing what will come out if you just start writing. You don't even have to know what you're writing about. Just get a pen in your hand and start writing something, and it'll all just kind of flow out of you.

SPEAKER_00 22:47

I'll keep everyone posted on that because that's I just pulled out like a book that I can write in. Oh that that is one of the goals. That's something I'm trying to do.

SPEAKER_01 22:56

Oh, so we can track you.

SPEAKER_00 22:57

I will keep you posted if that's all right.

SPEAKER_01 22:59

Hot flash and sassy audience. We can hold her accountable.

SPEAKER_00 23:03

Yeah, you can. Now I have to do it.

SPEAKER_01 23:05

I use um something else. It's called Insight Timer. It's actually a meditation app, but they have amazing sounds on it. So I love the thunderstorm that's on there. So that's another one that I like to put on if I wake up in the middle of the night. For some reason, it just helps me go right back to sleep.

SPEAKER_00 23:22

All right, there we go.

SPEAKER_01 23:23

That's our advice.

SPEAKER_00 23:24

Yeah, that's great. Yeah, sleep changes. I it really is one of the most frustrating parts of the transition.

SPEAKER_01 23:30

But they are common and treatable-ish. I mean, if you want to acknowledge hormones, it's a bit bigger step. But there's also um things that you can do that help you through this crazy ride that we call menopause, perimenopause.

unknown 23:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 23:46

You deserve, you deserve rest. You need it. Your body actually can't function without it. You do, you deserve the support and you don't have to power through it silently. It's a very common thing, I think, amongst perimenopause and menopausal women.

SPEAKER_01 23:59

Definitely. So uh let's wrap this up. If sleep is be has become a struggle, let this be your reminder. Your body isn't betraying you, you're just changing. Nice blood. Let's all cry together. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 24:14

And with the right information and support, sleep can get better.

SPEAKER_01 24:18

If today's episode helped, share it with a friend who's tired but can't sleep.

SPEAKER_00 24:24

Subscribe, follow, and leave a review. Follow us on Facebook. It helps us reach more women who need these conversations.

SPEAKER_01 24:30

Until next time, stay cool, rest when you can, and never lose your sass. I almost thought that Sush said ass. Well, I would like to lose my ass.